July 23, 2011

Sometimes I debate Anarcho-Capitalists in gchat

They come to me, I don't seek them out:

Mad: Is there any objective reason why we should steal from the well off and give it to the less off, or is there only "moral" reasons?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪First- it's not stealing.  Taxes are the dues you pay to be part of the "civilization club."‬
 ‪Mad: But I never consented to that‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Well, go live in the woods‬
you don't have to pay taxes if you don't earn income
 ‪Mad: But I need income to live‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪do you?‬
 ‪Mad: Absolutely‬
For food, shelter, insurance, so forth
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Why don't you try earning a different monetary unit?‬
You're earning government money
They are federal reserve notes
those are what are taxable
 ‪Mad: The government outlaws all other forms of units‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪not really‬
 ‪Mad: Didn't you hear what happened in North Carolina?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪There are alternative currencies all over the USA‬
also bartering
time dollars
 ‪Mad: Bartering is IRS taxable‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪only if you get a recipt‬
 ‪Mad: If for example‬
I wanted to print my own US dollars
They'd arrest me
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Yeah, that would be fraudulant‬
you'd have to come up with a different currency
 ‪Mad: Which the central bankers would crush once they become viable‬
Why do you like central bankers?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I don't like central bankers.  How would the central bankers crush your alt currency, exactly?‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
Are you aware of what happened to the Demurge currency in Austria back during the last depression?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Wikipedia's Entry on Alternative Currencies in the USA
So what?
 ‪Mad: The central banks crushed that currency‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪We don't have a central bank.‬
Our dollars are backed by Debt
 ‪Mad: Yes we do‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Not really‬
 ‪Mad: It's called the Federal Reserve‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Yeh, sort of‬
 ‪Mad: Also http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/03/20/us-crime-currency-idUKTRE72J46L20110320‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I understand where you're coming from with that argument, but that central bank isn't like other central banks‬
also, the State Bank of North Dakota is public, not private
 ‪Mad: Well yes, it's half the way it should be‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and has been extremely successful‬
 ‪Mad: Ideally, the private banks should just run their own currency schemes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪not at gaining riches, but at keeping the economy out there stable‬
 ‪Mad: I want a return to free banking‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Free market banking?‬
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪But the Federal Reserve is a private entity‬
you're getting fucked by privatization right now
 ‪Mad: Well it's a quasi private public institution‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Our money supply is private‬
 ‪Mad: I want to go back to before the federal reserve‬
When it was entirely private
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪It's was actually entirely public‬
 ‪Mad: No‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes‬
 ‪Mad: Free Banking was entirely private‬
Wilson changed that
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Nope‬
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Sorry.‬
 ‪Mad: Before‬
States had their own currency
Along with banks
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Yes, before the fed, the currency was public‬
 ‪Mad: This was better‬
Currency was competitive
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪OH!  States had their own currency, you're talking articles of confederation style‬
Yeah, those currencies were all public too
 ‪Mad: No‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes‬
 ‪Mad: No‬
Not all
Many currencies were private and supplied by the banks
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's different‬
 ‪Mad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking#History‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That system sucked, by the way‬
 ‪Mad: Although the period from 1837 to 1864 in the U.S. is often referred to as the Free Banking Era, the term is something of a misnomer, for it refers not to a general system of "free" banking in the literal sense described previously, but rather to various state banking systems based on so-called "free banking" laws, which, though they made it unnecessary for new entrants to secure charters (each of which was subject to a vote by the state legislature), nonetheless restricted their undertakings in important ways. Most importantly, U.S. "free" banks were denied the right to establish branch networks, and had to "secure" their notes by purchasing and surrendering to state banking authorities certain securities those authorities deemed eligible for the purpose.‬
No it didn't
Why do you think it sucked?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Yes, it did.‬
Because it created bank rushes, and unstable economies
 ‪Mad: Well‬
There was some instability yes
But it was worth the price of freedom imo
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Without regulation, banks are free to fuck over their customers‬
 ‪Mad: If the customers don't like it, go to a different bank‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪But the bank could prevent you from transferring that money‬
and without any regulatory agency to go to, they could just steal from you
 ‪Mad: They could‬
But that would be bad business
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪this "freedom" you speak of is really unattractive‬
yeah, and who's going to stop them?
 ‪Mad: Customers‬
They will simply stop going there
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪how?‬
 ‪Mad: When it's known they steal‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and then lose everything they've invested in the bank?‬
 ‪Mad: Who will still go there?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪hardly‬
the bank gets away with all your money, and you get nothing
 ‪Mad: If need be, they can simply go to the branch with firearms and force them to give them back their money‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪This "freedom" sounds a lot like barbarism‬
 ‪Mad: Well no‬
It's like when a cop comes and forces them by gunpiont to do something
But now it's just the customers
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Also, how would you spend that money?‬
What if your grocery store was owned by the bank and you could only use that bank's money to buy groceries?
 ‪Mad: Go to a different grocery store‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And the bank, free from regulation, hired a military to bomb all the other grocery stores‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
That would be illegal
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪illegal according to whom?‬
 ‪Mad: Laws‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪There's  no government regulation‬
 ‪Mad: I'm ok with laws against murder‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪But that's regulation‬
 ‪Mad: Sure‬
I'm a minarchist, not an anarchist
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪so you agree that SOME regulation is okay?‬
 ‪Mad: In some rare circumstances yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That SOME regulation is required to keep society civilized?‬
 ‪Mad: Depends on how you define civilized, but yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Now, how is that government going to enforce that regulation?‬
If there's no revenue through taxation?
 ‪Mad: With police officers, preferably outsourced to private firms‬
They can use land taxation
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪what is to keep those police officers working in the public interest rather than the bank's interests?‬
 ‪Mad: Pay them more‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪pay them more with what?‬
 ‪Mad: Money‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪from where?‬
 ‪Mad: Or materials‬
Food, materials, slaves, etc.
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪slaves?‬
what about freedom?
 ‪Mad: Well‬
I'm not for slavery
I'ms peaking hypothetically
Many societies employed slaves
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Right, but this hypothetical one has everybody free.  So no slaves‬
 ‪Mad: And there'd be some form of taxation, land taxation, so it's voluntary‬
Alright, no slaves
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪so you support some taxation to pay for government?‬
 ‪Mad: If it's voluntary yes‬
And it's not redistributed
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪isn't hiring a police force to keep the banks from bombing grocery stores a "redistribution of wealth"?‬
 ‪Mad: In a way maybe‬
But very minimal
Just enough to keep up from barbarism
keep us*
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Now, do you really think that a bunch of poor farmers, whose raw goods are worth very little under capitalism, are going to be able to generate enough revenue using a private bank's own currency, to stop the bank from running everything?‬
by hiring a police force?
 ‪Mad: They can storm the banks themselves‬
And hold them at gunpoint
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And with the collpase of the bank, the currency becomes worthless‬
 ‪Mad: Or tell their congressional representative that they're being unfairly exploited‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and what is to prevent the congressional representative from being in the pocket of the banks?‬
 ‪Mad: That's the point though, once a new bank forms, they'll be more ethnical‬
They can be voted out of office
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪without regulation, banks could spend lavishly on congressional reps‬
 ‪Mad: Vote them out‬
No regulation needed
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And they'll be replaced with more people who are in the bank's pocket‬
if not at first, then eventually
 ‪Mad: Well that's the folly of democracy in a way‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and if they decide to go against the banks, the banks will hire assassins‬
 ‪Mad: Would they not hire assassins to kill the regulators?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪they did that too‬
and the people who passed the regulations into law
 ‪Mad: But it still happened‬
So they may try
But lose
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and put their heads on pikes as a warning to others‬
 ‪Mad: Of course‬
Under a free market
There is no monopolies
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪how is that?‬
 ‪Mad: Competition‬
Kills monopolies
Only government creates monopolies
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's not true‬
 ‪Mad: Have you heard of the Dutch East Indian Company?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I have, I know that whole story, and have read Life Inc‬
Govt creates corporate monopolies
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
Do you agree with Life Inc's analysis?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Partially‬
The thing of it is, is this:
If you allow govt and private wealth to collude, you get monopoly
if you let private power have free reign, you get monopoly too
 ‪Mad: What do you disagree with? I'm curious as to that‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪if you give the government all economic power, you get monopoly‬
I view government as on equal footing with corporations and businesses.  They are both corporate power structures.  One is run democratically, and one is run fascistically.
Governments are unions.
 ‪Mad: Where did Life Inc get it wrong though? I think he has it spot on it's government and not the free market‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Corporations are unions too‬
I think that's shallow analysis
 ‪Mad: Who's?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪to pin everything on govt‬
Life Incs analysis is this: the free market is evil, and will eat itsself alive.  If we let it run it's course, it will die.  That's not what you're arguing.
 ‪Mad: Is it?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes‬
 ‪Mad: I read it‬
He said government and central authority are to blame
The very same author said we should have let the banks die too (I agree), and let a new economy form
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪If you eliminate democratic government, corporate power becomes the new government‬
here's the thing-- yes, governments allow corporations to exist-- within governments.
 ‪Mad: That's fine, I want a government subject to profit/loss anyway.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪The Dutch East Indian Company did not need permission to operate in the  USA as the government here‬
 ‪Mad: It did from the crown‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪But it didn't need it.‬
 ‪Mad: It got the permission though‬
The Crown would have killed them all
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪They could have hired their own military and had a coup against the monarchy‬
 ‪Mad: Yeah but remember‬
Government has the real power
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪the deal that was struck allowed both power structures to exist symbiotically‬
 ‪Mad: They simply let corporations run amok via long leash theory‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Business is a stateless nation‬
Corporations are stateless nations
 ‪Mad: Run very efficiently imo‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes, Fascism is extremely efficient‬
 ‪Mad: We agree there‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Look-- a corporation is the textbook definition of fascism‬
 ‪Mad: Then what's your solution? You said you're against government having all the economic power.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Yes.‬
I'm a Democratic Socialist
 ‪Mad: Socialism sucks‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪No, communism sucks‬
 ‪Mad: That too‬
So, what would be your ideal economic system
Give me some details
Since "socialism" is also in the eye of the beholder
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪My ideal economic system is a mixed market economy, and a democratic socialism government and economy‬
 ‪Mad: What is a democratic economy?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪This means democratically run workplaces‬
 ‪Mad: So‬
Would you democratically run a nuclear power plant?
That sounds dangerou
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Actually, democratically run power plants are less dangerous‬
 ‪Mad: Which ones?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Union run ones for starters‬
 ‪Mad: Democratically running dangerous facilities is a recipe for disaster‬
Oh well
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪But it's not a recipe for disaster‬
it's far safer
 ‪Mad: Unions are only democratic nomially, many are centralized and more meritically run, which I have no problem with.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪union run nuclear facilities are safer.  They report more incidents to regulators, and know that they are protected by both the union and the government from the corporation by whistleblower status‬
 ‪Mad: But that's not a democratically run power plant‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes it is‬
 ‪Mad: That's a union power plant‬
‪With it's own centralized beachwear‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪beachwear?‬
 ‪Mad: AFL-CIO and SEIU are not democracies (anymore), they've long become nominally democratic.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's a strawman‬
 ‪Mad: How so?‬
I don't know where beachwear came from
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Because you're attacking the organization, which is a separate entity from the workplaces in which unions exist‬
 ‪Mad: I'm not attacking them‬
I'm complimenting them
I'm against Democracy
It's inefficient
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪So you're a fascist?‬
 ‪Mad: No‬
Not really
I have some overlap though
My ideal governance system would be Singapore
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪REALLY?!‬
You should move there then
 ‪Mad: Yes really!‬
I wish I could
I'd rather help import that here though
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I do not want that at all‬
 ‪Mad: But I want to see a democratically run nuclear power plant‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪my brother is living there currently, and he says it sucks‬
there are checkpoints where you are searched by the military to make sure you don't have chewing gum
 ‪Mad: In what way does it suck?‬
Yes, what's the problem?
They need to maintain the city and make it clean
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪He went and saw a rock and roll band, and the band wasn't allowed to dance on stage‬
that doesn't sound like freedom at all
if you spit in public you get caned
 ‪Mad: That's fine‬
How else will they stop spitting?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's not liberty‬
that sounds like the most oppressive government possible
 ‪Mad: Yes but they have great business freedom‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪fuck business freedom‬
 ‪Mad: It's the heart of an economy‬
Where would you be without corporations?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪without personal liberty and civil liberties business freedom is worthless‬
 ‪Mad: Really?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I would be happier without most corporations‬
 ‪Mad: We wouldn't have any of modern civilization without it‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes‬
True, government is a corporation
also, Land O Lakes is a democratically run collective
it's super inefficient
everybody get's paid the same
 ‪Mad: I'm not surprised‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and nobody is fired‬
 ‪Mad: Democratically run collectives are inefficient‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and they've been around for over 100 years‬
 ‪Mad: So then, we agree democratically run workplaces are inefficient?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and manage to get their product into almost every supermarket in the USA‬
no, I was being sarcastic
 ‪Mad: Oh‬
Where would computers be
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪They run a top-notch business‬
 ‪Mad: Without corporations?‬
Land o lakes is also not a power plant though
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪you're right.  they make butter‬
 ‪Mad: Much safer‬
Democracy is fine when the worst case scenario isn't much to worry about
When it's a nuclear meltdown
Democracy sucks
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪However-- data and history prove that unionized power plants are safer‬
same with coal mines
 ‪Mad: Sure‬
I won't argue there
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Unions are mini-democracies within fascist states‬
collectives are full fledged democratic workplaces
 ‪Mad: Sort of, they're authoritarian as well nowadays, which is good‬
SEIU was recently working with Kaiser to crush a new union forming
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Anyways, i'd rather work for Land O Lakes than some corporation that's going to fuck me out of my pension‬
 ‪Mad: Where would computers be without corporations?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Where would you be without the US Govt?‬
 ‪Mad: Much happier‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Doubtful‬
 ‪Mad: No, I'm pretty sure‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪more likely you'd be in a slave camp‬
 ‪Mad: How so?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪are you rich?‬
 ‪Mad: Define rich‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪do you make more than $1,000,000 a year?‬
 ‪Mad: Oh no‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪do you make more than 100,000 a year?‬
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪well, it's no wonder that you're a fucking fascist then‬
 ‪Mad: ?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪You're on the winning side of that coin‬
I'm on the losing side
 ‪Mad: Oh well‬
That is life isn't it?
Also I'm not a fascist
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I was born poor, and since our "free market" does not actually allow for class mobility like the horatio algers fairy tales lead us to believe, I will remain poor‬
 ‪Mad: Wait‬
We have plenty of social mobility in the US
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪no we dont‬
 ‪Mad: Really? I see al ot of people move up after university‬
a lot*
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I have come out of college saddled with debt, and without a college degree‬
 ‪Mad: well what did you major in?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I cannot get a good paying job because I don't have a degree‬
I cannot get my degree because I have too much student debt
 ‪Mad: Well‬
What did you major in?
That is very important
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I cannot get more loans, because I "have not made progress towards my degree."‬
I majored in music.  That's not important.  Majors are meaningless.  It's your master's degree that's important
I would like to go on to law school.
 ‪Mad: I only have a B.S. and I'm doing very well. It matters very much what you chose to major in‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I will not be able to afford to, unless I get a full boat scholarship‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
Why should I pay for your poor choices? No offense.
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪It would not have mattered‬
 ‪Mad: This can't be changed‬
It's the law of life
The losers stay losers unless they have will power
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪NO, its a law of capitalism‬
 ‪Mad: In life‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪the poor remain poor, and the rich remain rich‬
 ‪Mad: There's a few winners‬
and a whole lot of losers
~George Carlin
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪that's capitialsim‬
 ‪Mad: That's fine, capitalism works very well‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪If you're on the winning side, it works great for you‬
For the bottom 60% of americans, it fucking sucks
 ‪Mad: Yes, look at it from my perspective‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪We are effectively slaves‬
That is not freedom
 ‪Mad: We're successful because we worked hard, and we're being rewarded for it‬
You can stop working and go on welfare
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Hardly‬
I can barely afford to support myself now
 ‪Mad: It is not my fault their ancestors made poor decisions‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's not freedom, or equality, or anything that America stands for‬
 ‪Mad: It is freedom‬
You have the ability to rise above your status
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪America is founded on the idea that people can create their own future, that people are all created equal, that nobody should be held to account for their father's sins‬
 ‪Mad: Well then, I wonder why we had slaves?‬
That seems like a glaring contradiction.
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪We had slaves because black people were not seen as people, they were seen as cattle‬
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
So not all men were "created" equal
Which is true
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Today, we recognize that all people are people‬
 ‪Mad: Some people are inherently superior to others‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪or at least that's the dominant paradigm‬
No, some people are born with a spear pointed at their throat, and some people are born holding the spear
 ‪Mad: No‬
Some are superior to others
Compare Albert Einstein to a Down Syndrome kid
who's superior?
I'm going with the former, given how much he contributed to society, unlike the latter, who only was a leech
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I've got to go.  It's good to know that you're a fascist.‬
 ‪Mad: I'm not‬
But I'm sorry you're angry at success
we can't have it all though
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I'm not angry at success.  I'm angry at systemic inequity‬
 ‪Mad: All societies are highly unequal‬
The strong rule over the weak
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and the idea that those who have the misfortune of being born poor should be crushed completely‬
 ‪Mad: They need us more than we need them‬
I don't think they should be crushed
Unless they try to take over
I hope we don't get a repeat of Tsarist Russia
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I do too.  Which is why social spending should not be cut‬
 ‪Mad: I disagree‬
Force of arms is enough to put them down
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪you're out of touch with reality‬
The fewer of the rich there are, the more of the poor there are.
 ‪Mad: Or middle class‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪the rich get exponentially richer‬
 ‪Mad: You're forgetting them‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪we don't have a middle class in the USA anymore‬
 ‪Mad: I'm middle class‬
We still exist
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪No you're not.‬
 ‪Mad: Oh, what am I?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Upper class.  Middle class makes 46,000 a year‬
 ‪Mad: Oh‬
Well ok, maybe so
I'm loving it though
Why should I give it up?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Nobody is saying you should give it up.‬
 ‪Mad: But I will have to‬
If more people become upper class
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪You have a right to be successful.  Not at the expense of those who put you there‬
 ‪Mad: My wealth is dispirited‬
I put myself here
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That's bullshit.  No man is an island‬
 ‪Mad: Poor welfare moms did not put me here‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪yes they did‬
 ‪Mad: Oh really?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪what do you do for a living‬
what is your trade or industry?
 ‪Mad: Stock broker (yes, I'm sure you'll think I'm evil now)‬
I'm part of the class that keeps your economy pumping
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪HAHAHAH!!!  That's bullshit, but whatever‬
 ‪Mad: Not bullshit.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪So is there a particular field that you trade?‬
a particular market rather?
 ‪Mad: Pharmaceutical industry‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪okay‬
The pharmaceutical industry make their money by doing what?
 ‪Mad: Plus, I'm not rich, I only make 300,000 USD, which isn't that much really.‬
Creating pharmaceuticals.
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And then?‬
 ‪Mad: Selling them‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪To whom?‬
 ‪Mad: The general public‬
The ones with insurance at least
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And the biggest insurance provider in the USA is?‬
 ‪Mad: Probably Aetna‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And the biggest consumer of pharmaceuticals is?‬
Actually no, it's Medicare
 ‪Mad: Oh well, yeah‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and the biggest consumer is old people‬
 ‪Mad: I was talking privately spekaing‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪who are on social security‬
 ‪Mad: speaking*‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I'm talking "real life"‬
 ‪Mad: So am I‬
I'm not against Medicare
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Right, because it makes you rich‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
It's a needed program is it not?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Welfare moms are often on medicare.‬
 ‪Mad: No‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪sorry,‬
 ‪Mad: They're on Medicaid‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪medicaid‬
 ‪Mad: Which is a terrible program btw‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I agree.‬
Medicare should be expanded to cover everybody.
 ‪Mad: But if we did that‬
80% of our economy would be Medicare
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and you'd be fuckin' rolling in it‬
 ‪Mad: Maybe, but not when our economy crashes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪our economy already crashed‬
 ‪Mad: Not for my community‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪it will soon enough‬
 ‪Mad: Not if we get the right people in‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪See, when poor white trash like me can't afford to by the things that you produce, revenue for you goes down‬
 ‪Mad: I agree‬
I wouldn't call you white trash though
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I am white trash.  I accept that.  I work in a fucking factory, and i'm effectively a college drop out (not by my choice)‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
College isn't for everybody
 Sent at 3:03 PM on Saturday
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I would agree with that.  If we had universal education, people like me, who actually WANT to learn could go and learn and become successful without debt.‬
 ‪Mad: I think though, you would fare much better under a free market.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Those people who think of college as a four year party binge would get kicked out, and prevent degree inflation from happening‬
 ‪Mad: Ok, but here's the rub with free universal higher ed‬
What about the people who don't utilize it well? What do we do with them?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪What do you mean?‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
As you put it
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪The four year party people?‬
 ‪Mad: The kids who use it as a party binge?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And then they can go on to a trade school and become succesful plumbers or electricians‬
 ‪Mad: Ok sure‬
But I have to pay 4 years
Of University for those folks
That is a raw deal
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Not really.‬
In france there is an aptitude exam.  If you don't pass, you have to go to a private institution
or a trade school
 ‪Mad: Hmm‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪the thing is though, I know a woman from france who did not pass, went to trade school, and is now the captain of a research vessle, and she makes $150,000 a year, plus has 6 months off every year‬
 ‪Mad: We have plenty of trade schools here‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪*vessel‬
 ‪Mad: though a lot of them are scams‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪exactly‬
 ‪Mad: Unfortunately.‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪they are scams because they are not effectively regulated‬
 ‪Mad: I actually agree there‬
And they suck off tax dollars
Circumventing pell grants in thew rong direction
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪absolutely‬
An instance in which socialism is bailing capitalism out
 ‪Mad: You're right‬
How would we pay for it?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Taxation.‬
 ‪Mad: The Euro Zone is about to collapse‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪So is the USA‬
 ‪Mad: Tax and spend social democracy haven't been sustainable\‬
Well true
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪At the heart of both crises has been the banks funneling money upwards to the very richest few‬
 ‪Mad: I agree‬
we need to get rid of central banks
Ala Ron Paul
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I agree with that.‬
Sort of
The Gold Standard is just another arbitrary monetary unit

How to Fix Trickle Down Economics & Make It Work

 ‪Mad: Well‬
The Gold Standard is stable though
 Sent at 3:11 PM on Saturday
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪not really.  The Gold Standard artificially limits the money supply.  Plus, you still end up with the same problems.  The Fed (a private bank) doesn't print money.  It lends credit.  The Treasury prints money.  Neither the gold nor the money are worth anything.  That is a mass delusion that we all participate in.‬
 ‪Mad: Well‬
What's yoru solution? If I may ask
There's a flaw with your video
You're not taking into account the intellectual deficit the poor have.
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I'm poor.  Do I have an intellectual deficit?‬
 ‪Mad: No‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪and do you think that they intellectual deficit may be caused by the fact that their schools are underfunded?‬
 ‪Mad: But you're only one person‬
We overfund our public education system
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪also, stupid people still buy thngs‬
 ‪Mad: Triple them to inner city schools‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪that's laughable!‬
 ‪Mad: No we do‬
We throw money at problems
Thinking they'll get solved
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I grew up in a rural area.  Our shool almost collapsed financially because our town council was unwilling to raise property taxes by $1 per capita‬
 ‪Mad: What happened?‬
If I may inquire
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪We lobbied our town council ceaselessly, and they raised taxes.  And our school was saved.‬
 ‪Mad: Hmm‬
Why wouldn't they raise the 1 dollar tax?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And nobody even noticed that extra dollar‬
They wouldn't raise it because they were Republicans who thought that all taxation was theft
 ‪Mad: Hmm‬
Well in LA
Which is run by Democrats
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Corrupt Democrats‬
 ‪Mad: They fund poor schools there quite lavishly‬
And still they're dumb kids
Perhaps they're just born stupid?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪By what standard are they dumb?‬
 ‪Mad: Lack of knowledge and reason‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That seems to me to be more of a problem with curriculum‬
 ‪Mad: And why would you assume Los Angeles politicians are corrupt (that was rhetorical)‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪if you fund a crappy curriculum and teach to standardized tests, you get standardized idiocy‬
 ‪Mad: Ok what should be done?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I am not familiar with the LA school system.‬
 ‪Mad: Ok, in a broad sense‬
What would your educational strategy be?
More money?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪What I would do with any school system though, is make sure that there is an emphasis on 1) the scientific method 2) critical thinking skills 3) debate 4) civic engagement‬
Funding is secondary to curriculum
 ‪Mad: Why those four?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪because you need to teach people to think for them to learn‬
 ‪Mad: But doesn't society need burger flippers?‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I was lucky to have several teachers who challenged me to think rather than believe‬
I think that society would not collapse in the absence of burger flippers
 ‪Mad: I did too, but I went to private school‬
I think so
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I went to public school.‬
 ‪Mad: We need an intellectual devoid class to do our dirty work‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪First I disagree‬
 ‪Mad: It's kind of like our military‬
We need a class of people who are stupid and only listen to orders
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪wow, that's really dark‬
 ‪Mad: And we need the intelligent people who will give the orders, and are able to interpret them‬
Life is quite dark, I accepted this long ago
But why do you disagree?
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪What of those who are poor and intelligent who cannot afford to go to private schools?‬
And those who are stupid and rich, like George W Bush?
 ‪Mad: I believe society should make merit based scholarships‬
I wouldn't mind if the government funded them
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪That sounds like socialism‬
 ‪Mad: A bit‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪are you sure you want to redistribute the wealth like that?‬
 ‪Mad: It's a minor amount‬
Ideally, I'd want their parents to pay on their own
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Why should you steal from the stupid rich people who can AFFORD to go to private schools just to pay for poor people?  They shouldn't have been born poor.  End of story, right?‬
 ‪Mad: But if they can't, and their child is truly deserving, sure. But most children are pretty dumb, so it'll be of lowe cost‬
Ideally I agree
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪Wow.‬
 ‪Mad: Their parents are responsible for their poverty‬
But I agree there's exceptions
As few as they may be
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪And their parents's parents are responsible for their parents's poverty.‬
 ‪Mad: Yes‬
Punk Patriot: ‪ ‬ ‪I've really got to go.‬
 ‪Mad: If they're deserving‬
I'm not an idealist though, I'm a free market advocate by principle, with some exceptions


  1. Oh poor him, he only makes 300,000 a year. I'd kill for that income, literally.

  2. Seriously. I like the part where he says we should pay the police with slaves.

  3. Buck privates in combat zones earn $20,311.20 in a year including hostile fire pay, and in lots of parts of the country this is considered a good career path for an average Joe fresh out of high school. This dude who earns FIFTEEN TIMES AS MUCH for selling legal fictions to rich assholes doesn't think he earns enough?! And as to his comments on the military, how does one respond to that? Do you really want our nation's defense to be conducted by a corps of idiots? I'd like to see his ASVAB score.

  4. That man is sick in the head! ..It actually gave me the creeps just reading it. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant some people are.

    I don't know if this is because I'm Canadian, but there are people in the U.S that literally make my stomach turn!

    Why don't they close down all the prisons in the U.S? The rich or "job creators" could get lower taxes- Plus, we could test their belief in, 'only the strong survive'. It's a win/Win!

    Sorry. That shit's contagious! That's why one of my favorite statements is the following:

    "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

    -Jason Dawson

  5. Hey Punk Patriot, if you can't tell the difference between stealing and willingly paying, there is not enough reason here to continue. If you take a banana from me by force and give it to a starving person, you have just made a slave out of me. Not too patriotic.


    If you don't want to pay taxes, MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

    Also, helping your fellow Americans out when they are in need is EXTREMELY Patriotic.

  7. I dont understand the thought process this guy goes through. It's like he goes from discussing what system is better for productivity and general wellness to being fascist, elitists and a general a-hole. Plus you totally killed him in debate while he made himself look bad. Wont ever understand these guys.

  8. @Punk Patriot, your logic and reason is extremely flawed. Taxes are not paid willingly. If you dont pay taxes, you go to jail. Force is used to collect taxes therefore making it an involuntary process. Keyword - INVOLUNTARY. When we live in a society that forces us to do things, then it can no longer be considered a free society. A free society is comprised of voluntary contracts and agreements, not involuntary. This applies to everything such as gay marriage, the drug war, and TAXES. You can marry anyone you want, I dont care. You can put anything you want in your body, I dont care. And you can do whatever you want with your money, I DONT CARE. But dont force me to succomb to your ideology on economics and taxes or whatever. As long as you dont hurt me or steal or damage my property, then do whatever you want. Your rebuttal by saying, "Move Somewhere else" is not valid. This is supposedly a free country. By you saying that if I dont like it, I should move, does not represent a free society. It more represents a totalitarian society. I could respond by saying that if you don't like our constant state of war, then move elsewhere. Keeping our country safe from terrorists is EXTREMELY Patriotic. See, I can respond with the same phony excuses. I wont tell you to move somewhere else though. You can pay all the taxes you want. Go for it. I dont want to. I feel the taxes I pay mostly go to BS programs, policies, wars and corrupt bureaucrats. Why on Earth would I want to pay more money to all of this worthless crap? Quit playing the victim card. You dont need to leech off people to get by in life and a majority of Americans dont need to leech off other people to get by. I am sure you are quit capable of doing something constructive to support yourself. And I'm sorry that "Freedom" as you put it, sounds like "barbarism". Freedom to me sounds like freedom. It really blows my mind how anyone can still make a case for socialism when socialism has lead to such horrors as the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Powerful centralized government will always lead to corruption and a quest for more power no matter what the political party.

  9. How are you going to "keep our country safe from terrorists" if there are no taxes to pay for it.

  10. The Federal Reserve is not private as you mistakenly stated in the above conversation. The Federal Reserve system is an arm of the government. It was created by an act of Congress, its chairman is chosen by government appointment and it is endowed by government with monopoly privileges. How is that private exactly? Our money is also not private. How is it private when government creates it? A central bank created by government is not a free market principle. You blame privitization in the above conversation, but I dont think you know what privitzation is.

    - Kurt

  11. Kurt- you might want to read up on the Federal Reserve System.

    The Federal Reserve is a cabal of private banks, not an arm of the government. It's no more federal than Federal Express.

    Our money is not created by the government. It's printed by the Treasury, but the "value" it's imbued with comes from the private banks that the US borrows credit from. That's right- we borrow our money supply from banks. The banks don't print it. They just invent credit out of thin air.

    Our money supply is privatized. The private banks lend our government credit to print money. Lately, they've just been lending credit as zeros and ones. The Fed always turns a profit, we always owe a dollar and change on every dollar we print.

  12. Did they really say "the poor need us more than we need them"???
    I would think someone whose lifestyle relies entirely on dealing with numbers would be able to count.
    How does this person "earn" this much money and not realize they're a parasite?
    Their job is to shout commands at numbers on a screen... I think I just answered my own question.

    When you live inside an abstraction, reality has no significance.

    When reality no longer permits the abstraction, all those dumb poor people are going to cannibalize these arrogant shitheads.

  13. PS: You must have spent hours having this ridiculous conversation. I hope you also do productive things with your time.

  14. You correctly see him as a fascist, so why do you call him an anarcho-capitalist in the title?

    Also, you're poor because you majored in music. Choices lead to consequences. Your political beliefs are a projection of your inner angst onto the world at large. Just thought you should know that.

  15. It's got nothing to do with the fact that I majored in music.

    I'm not just poor, I cannot afford to live, even while working in a full time job where I make much more than minimum wage. I'm there with people who are working there full time who used to design weapons systems for airplanes, people who used to work as auto mechanics, and people who used to work in corporate for GM. All of them now qualify for food stamps and heating assistance.

    The rent is too goddamned high, and wages are too goddamned low.

    There is no difference between anarcho-capitalism and fascism. Fascism is rule by financial capital instead of democracy. So is anarcho-capitalism.

  16. Why exactly does communism suck? Is it based on that it "doesn't work" or are you referring to the "state-socialist" scam artists named Stalin, who perpetrated a lie about socialism to fuel his political career?